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XavierXante
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Wars of liberty - some balance issues

Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:59 am

UPDATE: I edited this to avoid misunderstandings!!!

First, I'm really thankful to the team for this mod. This is awesome!!! So many new techs, strategies. Zulu is awesome!!!

Okay...I'll stop fan girling and directly address some balance issues and my suggestions to mitigate them

1) One of the bad things about aoe3 is that some ranged units have same ROF as melee units, which is ridiculous, if you ask me. Do you seriously think that swinging a sword takes same time as shooting an arrow from the bow or shots from a musket? This is one of the reasons why many prefer musketeers rather than halberdiers and halberdiers are not touched at all.

So my suggestion is to reduce ROF for all hand infantry to 0.7. When I said hand infantry, I mean all infantry that has only melee attack.

Well it takes bit more time to melee attack with musket or to attack while sitting on horse. So for ranged infantry, ranged cavalry when they are in melee mode, melee cavalry (including elephants) and infantry which act as ranged and melee cavalry, ROF should be 1.1 or 1.2.

Some ranged units will have 1.5 ROF and some will have 3 ROF. So there will be balance between melee and ranged. Of course you can reduce the attack of some melee units which you think will become OP with this change.

Note: Reduce ROF means to reduce the value of ROF. A unit having 1.5 ROF attacks twice as fast as a unit having 3 ROF

2) There are several issues with elephants, like they take too much of population, pathing issues etc. This makes late game slightly unfair for Indians as it takes lot of time to create camels.

My suggestions are:
-> To mitigate pathing issues, change the Obstruction radius to 0.79X, 0.79Z, which is equal to cavalry. The credit goes to Murdilator.

-> Mahout should take 6 pop(from 7 pop), Howdah should take 5 pop(from 6 pop) and elephant mansabdars should take 1.5x pop instead of 2x pop.

-> Mahout cost should be changed to 400 food 300 Gold(from 400 food 250 wood).

-> Mahout HP should be increased to 1000(from 917). Howdah's HP must be decreased to 550 or 500 (from 667). Mansabdars must be adjusted accordingly.

-> Elephants obviously have more more damage area than horses. So the damage area of mahout and flail elephant should be increased to 3 or 4 (from 2). Mansabdars must be adjusted accordingly.

-> Mahout's penalty vs heavy infantry should be changed to 0.6x (from 0.5x). I don't know why they invoked 0.5x penalty vs villagers for mahouts, which is unrealistic. So please remove that penalty. Mansabdars must be adjusted accordingly.

-> Siege elephant have very less siege attack and bonus vs artillery. It is supposed to be a mix of culverin and mortar. But it actually acts like mortar only. It has less siege attack and less multipliers vs artillery. At least increase their siege attack to 60(from 40) OR increase their bonus vs artillery to 4.5x (from 2.5x) like culverin.

->Since they are classified as light cavalry, skirmishers or archers easily take them down, which is plain ridiculous. Please remove that tag.

-> All elephants should have same speed that should be between 5 to 6. Siege elephant should have slightly less speed. Elephants moving as fast as cavalry is unrealistic.

3) Sowar stats are less than cossack(which takes 1 pop) but it takes 2 pop. So Sowar pop should be changed to 1 and its mansabdar to 2.

4)This is not necesary, but just to make the game more interesting, Gurkhas should have higher melee attack, like 12 (from 6), unlike other skirmishers. I know it is a stupid idea.

5) Aztecs coyote runner should have higher HP, like 180 or 190 (from 150) and slightly higher attack like 21 (from 18). of course increase the cost to 85 food 60 gold (from 85 food 25 wood). In late games coyote runners are the only choice Aztecs have vs massed skirmishers.

6) Uhlan's attack is approximately increased by 23.3 %, when compared to hussar, so its HP must be reduced by 23.3 percent, which makes 320 - 320 x 0.233 = 245. Right?

Wrong.

Uhaln has  190 HP. For what? 0.3 resists vs ranged instead of 0.2 vs ranged. So decrease their HP by 10 more percent, which makes 245- 245 x 0.1 = 220. But 190 HP is too low, that too for 2 pop. Cossack for 1 pop has 225 HP for gods sake!

These are the main issues that have been bugging me. I thought that wars of liberty mod will take care of these issues, but it didn't. Feel free to point out several issues. And I apologize in advance if I seemed to be rude.

P.S: I sincerely appreciate wars of liberty for increasing the siege attack of sioux, which is an extremely good step!
Last edited by XavierXante on Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
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Ramtha
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Re: Wars of liberty - some balance issues

Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:21 pm

2) Well India have a card that reduces the population of elephants in late game, I think this is the same with paraguayan factories that takes 5 population but you can reduce to 4 and liberate 20 of population in late game, if the paraguayan factory takes 4 population since the beggining you can greatly improve your timming making the civ a little OP. I think is that.

I dont agree with the armor of elephants, is a really bad idea give them a great armor when they have a tons of hp, those elephants seems early tanks. Same with the attack, siege and vel (is very unrealitic that elephants move equal or faster than some cavalary).

4) If the gurka have 12 of base mele in late game can be 24 and is too much compared with 12 at imperial of other skirms.

5) The remake of aztec civilization is in progress.

With the siux I think their siege is very unreallistic, the Wakina rifle and bowrider can have same siege of european falconet.
 
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Pepp
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Re: Wars of liberty - some balance issues

Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:40 pm

1. I think you're wrong (or not, I've not checked the newest data yet). Most archaic melee and ranged units has ROF of 1.5, even original dopplegänger, uh, dopplesöldner, has 1.5 too. Gunpowder trooper, in the other hand, has the ROF of 3.0. TWC fusilier mercenary is the fastest at ROF of around 2.7. Also, halberdier has bonus damage, while heavy gunpowder trooper doesn't have ranged bonus - but most does have bayonet bonus for melee.
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Jutlander
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Re: Wars of liberty - some balance issues

Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:09 pm

Have you ever played an online game?
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XavierXante
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Re: Wars of liberty - some balance issues

Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:33 pm

Ramtha wrote:
Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:21 pm
2) Well India have a card that reduces the population of elephants in late game, I think this is the same with paraguayan factories that takes 5 population but you can reduce to 4 and liberate 20 of population in late game, if the paraguayan factory takes 4 population since the beggining you can greatly improve your timming making the civ a little OP. I think is that.

I dont agree with the armor of elephants, is a really bad idea give them a great armor when they have a tons of hp, those elephants seems early tanks. Same with the attack, siege and vel (is very unrealitic that elephants move equal or faster than some cavalary).

4) If the gurka have 12 of base mele in late game can be 24 and is too much compared with 12 at imperial of other skirms.

5) The remake of aztec civilization is in progress.

With the siux I think their siege is very unreallistic, the Wakina rifle and bowrider can have same siege of european falconet.
2. That card is professional handlers, which reduces elephant pop by 1. So mansabdar mahout has 13 pop instead of 14. What's the use? Japanese have daimyo of 4 pop, which increases the attack/HP of all units, and to increase attack/HP of mahout, we need 2x pop? Well, that's unfair. That is why I said mansabdar elephants should take 1.5x pop. And cuirasser has slightly 30 attack, 500 HP and 2 damage area for 3 pop. Mahout has 28 attack, 917 HP, 2 damage area for 7 pop? WTF? That's why he should take 6 pop without the card. Similar logic to howdahs, siege elephants. Reduce the pop, reduce their HP. I agree with the speed though. Their speed should be between 5 to 6. Armour is too much I agree. But howdah should have 0.3 and siege elephants should have 0.75 armour. Siege elephants are tagged as light cavalry making them vulnerable to skirmishers, which is ridiculous.

4. That was just me being hyper. Don't bother.

5. Sioux wakinas or bow riders have that high siege attack with fire dance. They should as sioux have no artillery.
 
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XavierXante
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Re: Wars of liberty - some balance issues

Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:35 pm

Pepp wrote:
Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:40 pm
1. I think you're wrong (or not, I've not checked the newest data yet). Most archaic melee and ranged units has ROF of 1.5, even original dopplegänger, uh, dopplesöldner, has 1.5 too. Gunpowder trooper, in the other hand, has the ROF of 3.0. TWC fusilier mercenary is the fastest at ROF of around 2.7. Also, halberdier has bonus damage, while heavy gunpowder trooper doesn't have ranged bonus - but most does have bayonet bonus for melee.
Impi, aenna, cetanbow, bowrider, eagle runner knight etc., have 1.5 ROF.
 
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XavierXante
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Re: Wars of liberty - some balance issues

Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:37 pm

Pepp wrote:
Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:40 pm
1. I think you're wrong (or not, I've not checked the newest data yet). Most archaic melee and ranged units has ROF of 1.5, even original dopplegänger, uh, dopplesöldner, has 1.5 too. Gunpowder trooper, in the other hand, has the ROF of 3.0. TWC fusilier mercenary is the fastest at ROF of around 2.7. Also, halberdier has bonus damage, while heavy gunpowder trooper doesn't have ranged bonus - but most does have bayonet bonus for melee.
That's what I'm saying how can a bow and arrow work as fast as sword?
 
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XavierXante
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Re: Wars of liberty - some balance issues

Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:38 pm

Jutlander wrote:
Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:09 pm
Have you ever played an online game?
Wars of liberty? No. But Age of Empires 3 TAD? Yes. Several times in GR.
 
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XavierXante
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Re: Wars of liberty - some balance issues

Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:45 pm

I've observed in several games that India is slightly UP in lategames as the numbers are not sufficient. This is because elephants take too much pop. The only choice is howdahs/sepoys/gurkhas with some cannons from consulate. Elephants have horrible pathing, which make Mahouts ineffective.

Aztecs have coyote as only lategame counter against massed skirmishers. They cost wood. Or the only other choice is stealth coyotes and Jaguar, which are damn slow and are easily found out by explorers.
 
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Jutlander
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Re: Wars of liberty - some balance issues

Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:48 pm

Don't ever do quadruple post again (nor double nor triple post)
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