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Revert the changes made to Hajduk and Seimeni

Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:58 pm

I started playing the mod around patch 1.0.9 and I've been enjoying patch 1.0.10 a lot, but the changes made to the balkan civs' archaic units in the most recent patch seemed a bit off to me.

I wanted to argue this from a historical perspective since balance is a fairly subjective matter at times.

As it stands in patch 1.0.10, the Seimen is an archaic musketeer available to the Greeks and Serbians, and the Hajduk is an archaic ranger type unit available to all the balkan civs except the Bulgarians.

In the previous patch, the Seimen was an archaic skirmisher and the Hajduk was an archaic musketeer, I believe that this previous iteration fits the game's historical lore much better and provides a more interesting flavor to the Balkan civilizations in WoL.

In history, the Seimeni were Serbians who served as arsenal guards in Romania. The fact that they are no longer available to Romania is a bit baffling, and their previous iteration as Archaic skirmishers meant that they were available to Serbia and Romania, as they should be. Greece having Seimen in Wars of Liberty in the current patch is just flat out inaccurate.

So I propose that the before mentioned changes be made so that the rosters of infantry units for each balkan civ looks like this. (I'm ignoring Sailors at the moment)

Romania
- Maceman (Archaic Hand Infantry)
- Seimeni (Archaic Skirmisher)
- Dorobant (Romanian musketeer)
- Vanator (Romanian Age 3 Skirmisher) 
(Since the Vanator has its own unique modifiers against infantry, the archaic Seimeni would still have their own niche in a Romanian army)

Greece
- Maceman (Archaic Hand Infantry)
- Hajduk (Archaic Musketeer)
- Klepht (Greek Age 2 Skirmisher)
- Chorofylax (Greek Age 3 Musketeer) 
(Hajduks can be used as musketeers until the player can get field a decent number of Chorofylaxes)

Serbia
- Maceman (Archaic Hand Infantry)
- Hajduk (Archaic Musketeer)
- Seimeni (Archaic Skirmisher)
- Chetnik (Serbian Age 3 Skirmisher) 
(The player can use Seimeni as more durable skirmishers or as holdovers until Chetniks can be trained)

Please feel free to offer feedback. Love what you've done with the mod and can't wait to see more.
 
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HrdsHrdrck
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Re: Revert the changes made to Hajduk and Seimeni

Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:28 pm

Archaic musketeer :drunktibs:

Nah, the balkan units are ok, also as far as we know romania will be reworked so we should to wait
m sr y m frm stn scrts sn vcls sn nngn rzn prnt
 
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Re: Revert the changes made to Hajduk and Seimeni

Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:18 pm

To be honest this looks like a good suggestion
 
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Re: Revert the changes made to Hajduk and Seimeni

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:34 pm

Hoop Thrower wrote: To be honest this looks like a good suggestion
First time i see that you go positiv on suggestions ;D
Smile like a Banyana... Image
 
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Re: Revert the changes made to Hajduk and Seimeni

Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:36 pm

Yeah, I'm also rather unhappy with the current Balkan infantry roster. Most of them are even incredibly weak. It's so much focussed on being cheap, that they suffer from having garbage infantry. Also, why things are wrong now:
Bulgaria:
Has a huge weakness against skirmishers. Bulgaria itself has no unit who fulfils this role. Only in age 4, they can start countering skirms with artillery. They can have a skirm themselves, the Komitii, but that unit is way too frail for its pop cost.
Greece:
Is ok. The chorophyllax has a bit underwhelming HP/ranged attack IIRC
Romania:
in short, the cannons are on the front and the sponges in the back. I also heard they have a hard time countering heavy infantry and or countering ranged cavalry as they lack a real skirmisher.
Serbia:
From IV onwards, you have the choice to waste resources on archaic units, or you use only the expensive and extremely frail skirmishers, or you just don't infantry at all. The most logical solution would be to do like Australia, make the archaic units upgrade too.
+ Saboteur: This unit, which has not the best HP and a weird type of armor, does not upgrade at all.
+ The maceman IMO is too slow to be effective. Sure, it's dangerous, but it's costly, runs around a lot and get's easily hit-and-runned. Halberdiers are tanky, that's why their slow speed is not that much of a nuisance, but now macemen lack enough speed. I believe giving +0,5 speed would make things already a lot better.
AI game on patch 1.0.11b (and onwards): viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1981
Swiss UA proposal (obsolete?): viewtopic.php?f=8&t=768&p=6612#p6612
 
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Re: Revert the changes made to Hajduk and Seimeni

Fri May 10, 2019 4:31 pm

Since some people, who are used to how the current Balkan roster works, don't understand the whole issue, I will re-iterate a few things, and explain why reverting is better for the rosters.
Before the Switch, the Seimen was a (too) strong skirmisher, and the Hadjuk was a weak musketeer that costed wood. To avoid too much overlap in the rosters, some switches in the rosters were performed. Those would have to be reverted back, like Darksidemoderator explained well above. But, for the civs and their rosters, it is better to revert back.

Bulgaria: completely unaffected

Greece: Greece has the most solid, classical infantry roster, and won't feel much from the change. They will have the Hadjuk as age 2 musketeer instead of the Seimen.

Romania: Romania currently lacks a skirmisher. No, the Vanator is not a skirmisher. The Vanator is a unit that is only good against skirms. Very niche unit. Reverting the Switch will give Romania a skirmisher. That way they will also have a way to deal with heavy infantry like Halberdiers.

Now, a new problem arises: the Romanian skirmisher will get outdated! It doesn't upgrade to Aristocrat! There is only one way to solve that: make them upgrade again. But we don't want to have the mono Seimen armies back. And we want the Seimen to be archaic too.

Serbia: they are in a unique position as they have all the archaic units. As I explained in the previous post (when I didn't care as much about design), Serbia is pure garbage regarding infantry. With the revert, it won't be much different. If you  apply the upgrading of the archaic units, they will at least have a musketeer and anti-cav infantry unit in later ages, so that's an advantage. Their roster will become weirder: they will suddenly have two skirmishers who do level up. This requires more attention.

The Chetnik is a beautifully designed unit: the Serbian UA grants them an attack boost when other units die. They have a high attack stat, so they benefit a lot from that boost, and they die quickly, giving them even more boost. However, what function can the Seimen have? Answer: they should be the frontline, weak skirmisher. Almost exactly the opposite of the Chetnik. Archaic units will have a wood cost or/and low cost+low stats. The Seimen will be lower range, low attack, mediocre HP skirm with a low price. Low stats benefit less from upgrades, and quality becomes more important than quantity/price later in the game, which will make them "archaic". They don't need the same modifiers as the skirmisher, they could have modifiers between the ranger and the skirmisher to make them less strong early. Romania could then have a card that increases the multipliers to skirmisher-level or higher to make up, as they will still be stuck with an archaic unit as skirmisher.

EDIT: apparently people didn't quite get what I meant.
- Serbia: has garbage infantry now. The Chetnik needs a wall of units to function, as it is too frail. It is a mystery for me how Serbia should deal with swarms of Halberdiers.
- Romania: has no way to defeat late game dragoons, as it has no skirmisher. Also heavy infantry are problematic, they have only artillery to counter those.
- I propose re-introducing the upgrading of the archaic units. Those units are archaic here, no longer in the sense of upgrading, but in the sense of being cheap and pop-inefficient. Pop-efficiency becomes an important factor after 25 minutes or so ingame, unless if you have more pop space or can spam harder. Balkans don't have those two.
- This way Serbia gains access to late-game anti-cav infantry units.
- The Hadjuk remains a wood-food unit, but becomes a musketeer unit, like before. It gets archaic/outdated later because of the wood cost and the pop-inefficiency.
- The Seimen becomes a weaker skirmisher, with lower range. A bit like the Strelet. This will grant Romania a much-needed unit to counter heavy inf and light cav, without making Romania much more viable late game, as it is still only weaker version of the Skirmisher. The Seimen retains its food-coin cost.
- To not make the Seimen too Op, perhaps there can be looked at making it more between a ranger and a skirmisher regarding multipliers. That will help a bit to differ it from the Chetnik. Romania can have a card to bring the Seimen to skirmisher-like modifiers.
AI game on patch 1.0.11b (and onwards): viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1981
Swiss UA proposal (obsolete?): viewtopic.php?f=8&t=768&p=6612#p6612

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