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zen_unity
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Germany game balance

Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:59 am

Hi,

new to the forum and mod but I played a few thousand hours of the original game.

I know everyone is biased to some degree when it comes to the nations they like in the game and balancing should be 100% straight and objective but I would like address what is an issue with the Germans right now in my estimation:

The early game of Germany is balanced economy wise considering the Settler-wagons, but early military game doesn't leave room for much strategy.

Uhlans: effectively useless in combat, cheap but they really die with little to no impact to any unit. 
Landswehr: can be countered with ease by nations with skirmishers and skillful micromanagement.
Grenadiers: same as Landswehr but even worse because of the range and speed of the attack. I've seen bigger battles many times where you have to manage every single group of units to the last detail or grenadiers will throw grenades on single targets that get killed before they even throw and the attack vanishes instantly not even doing area of effect damage since it gets canceled immediately when the enemy unit dies.

All of this leaves only a very limited amount of options to change and adjust your strategy in the early game. Harassing villagers with cavalry or trying to rush to age 3 can only get you so far against a smart opponent. The whole situation reminds me of some early Starcraft II patches where the Terrans could only turtle or rush with reapers.

So I guess my question would be: Am I missing something obvious? 

My suggestions to possibly solve this issue would be:

Add one additional weaker and cheaper unit for the early stage of the game.
Add a card that changes Uhlans to medium cavalry German hussars, but make them more expensive and you get no free Uhlans after the shipment (if this is even possible since it's complicated)
Make Ulahns produced in the stable more expensive, but better.
Add unit mode to Uhlans that makes them slower but better guarded against light and heavy infantry.
It would be possible to reduce unit pop for Uhlans to 1, but that would defeat the purpose of having to manage your population due to shipments. 
Compared to other 1 pop cav units Uhlans are still pretty bad though, like Cossacks, which have 35 HP base points more without upgrades.

As I said, if I'm missing something big please let me know, otherwise I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the state of Germany (In Aoe3WoL, we are F***** here in reality)
 
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XavierXante
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Re: Germany game balance

Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:57 pm

I too used to have some issues with the stats of uhlan.

                        UHLAN    HUSSAR
Attack                 37             30
HP                     190            320
Resists               0.3            0.2

Uhlan's attack is about 23% more than that of Hussar. However, its HP is 40% less than that of Hussar. 0.3 resists doesn't make that much difference. I mean, attack and HP can be improved by unit upgrades, but not armour.

Well, that might be the reason why Germans get free Uhlans with every shipment. 

Anyway, my suggestion is, Uhlans should have HP that is either 23% or 30% less than that of Hussar. That means they should have 246 or 224 HP, instead of 190.

In late games, I'd rather create Totenkopf hussar. Wars of liberty has really done a great job in balancing Germany in late games.
 
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Re: Germany game balance

Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:23 pm

The problem with the Germans is that if you look closely, they tend to use you much more cavalry than other civilians because your infantry are too weak.

The Landwehr is much weaker than an ordinary musketeer. That's why they seem too weak. See in the comparison:
 
[table][tr][td] [/td]
[td]Musketeer[/td]
[td]Landwehr[/td]
[/tr]
[tr][td]HP[/td]
[td]150[/td]
[td]150[/td]
[/tr]
[tr][td]Damage[/td]
[td]23[/td]
[td]18[/td]
[/tr]
[tr][td]Range[/td]
[td]12[/td]
[td]16[/td]
[/tr]
[tr][td]Siege Damage[/td]
[td]20[/td]
[td]30[/td]
[/tr]
[tr][td]Hand Damage[/td]
[td]13[/td]
[td]9[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

I think Landwehr's high siege damage is unnecessary since you have grenadiers for free. He could have a better musket attack and lower the siege damage to balance him.

Jaeger although with less attack has a great bonus that balances this unit.
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Re: Germany game balance

Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:32 pm

Here is the comparison I mentioned earlier: 
                     
                                       Musketeer                           Landwehr
Range Attack                 23                                        18
HP                                  150                                      150
Siege Damage               20                                        30
Hand Damage               13  - 3x Cavalry                   9  - 3x Cavalry
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Re: Germany game balance

Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:47 pm

Militem Fides wrote: Here is the comparison I mentioned earlier: 
                     
                                       Musketeer                           Landwehr
Range Attack                 23                                        18
HP                                  150                                      150
Siege Damage               20                                        30
Hand Damage               13  - 3x Cavalry                   9  - 3x Cavalry
don't forget the price and the range, that with range 16 you can do feats
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Re: Germany game balance

Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:08 pm

About the range: although the range of 16 is better than 12, it does not make much difference especially when fighting cavalry, so I prefer a larger attack with a slightly smaller range.
About the price:
                                    Musketeer                           Landwehr
Price Food                  75                                         50
Price Coin                   25                                         50
Total                            100                                       100

Landwehr is more expensive because you collect coins more slowly than food.
The resistance of it is also smaller 0,10 to Landwehr against 0,20 to Musketeer.
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Re: Germany game balance

Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:19 pm

Militem Fides wrote: About the range: although the range of 16 is better than 12, it does not make much difference especially when fighting cavalry, so I prefer a larger attack with a slightly smaller range.
About the price:
                                    Musketeer                           Landwehr
Price Food                  75                                         50
Price Coin                   25                                         50
Total                            100                                       100

Landwehr is more expensive because you collect coins more slowly than food.
The resistance of it is also smaller 0,10 to Landwehr against 0,20 to Musketeer.
That is probably one of the issues with Uhlans as well. The unit being much cheaper in Food doesn't help much if you have to pay 100 Gold to buy one unit, for the same reason you mentioned. Pretty much every Civ has food more readily available than gold. 

While a bigger Range for the Landswehr would be nice even with optimal unit management you can only get a 1-2 shots more against units with faster movement-speed or shorter attack-range.
With the wide range of more specialized units in other nations competing can be tough, considering that the real advantage for your economy only applies with the settlerwagon card in age 4 and less normal settlers to keep enough pop for effective army sizes in the lategame.
 
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Re: Germany game balance

Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:06 am

Well, I think that if we were to reduce Landwehr's reach by 2 to 14 and increase his attack to 22 or 21 it would be very good for the Germans mainly in the more time-consuming games. His melee attack could be improved the bonus to be pareo for the cavalry and the German player to be less dependent on dragons.

The Uhlan, it would be interesting if as a lancer he had some bonus against the infantry, even if it was a low bonus, 1.25x for example. And to compensate for the low hit points, a melee armor higher, I think maybe 0.3 to 0.4.
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Re: Germany game balance

Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:14 am

Although this topic is about the Germans, the Italians also suffer from something similar. Bersagliere and Alpino have a greater range but their damage and hit points are sacrificed in the name of balance.
It would be interesting if for example the ranged attacks would keep the same damage compared to the standard units, I'll be able to be even higher (Bersagliere with damage of 24 and Alpine damage 16). To compensate, they would have a very low melee attack (Bersagliere 9 or 10 and Alpino 4) and their slightly improved hit points for Bersagliere (120 maybe with armor for ranged attack) and Alpine with better armor only.
This would maintain the proposal of a civilization focused on the attack at a distance, mass with greater competitiveness.
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Re: Germany game balance

Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:59 pm

You'll have to be careful though with exchanging damage for range or armor, or you risk making hand infantry to irrelevant, which would impact especially older native civilizations with melee infantry to much. While it makes logical sense that nations with better technology like rifles should dominate the older civs the game must stay fair. 

In my opinion the focus should be on more strategic/tactical possibilities and not favoring some units over others. Hence one of my suggestions for more unit modes, like melee cav trample. My argument would be e.x enabling trample on Uhlans is suicide while it can work great on Hussars or Cuirassiers since they have the hitpoints and armor to make the mode a valid choice in certain situations.
More different units can fulfill (and are to some degree) those specializations by default values and the right mix of units as well. 

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