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Stealth
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Italians

Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:23 am

I think I am the only one left who plays these guys almost entirely. I use to play the Italians 95% of the time on AOE2 as well as Sid Meyer games, Knights of Honor, and Total War games, so playing them here almost exclusively in WOL is nothing new to me in gaming. I like them amongst other reasons because they are challenging, even borderline under powered.

I thought I read something about them having the best spies and priests. I don't really see it.  The description of Italy says they have a stronger form of espionage, the Mafia. Not sure if I agree with that. Italian Spies and Assassins as well as spies/assassins others from other civs seem stronger than the Mafiosos in hitpoints and attack.  I know both units are most effective in stealth mode but still 5 assassins can take down an explorer but 5 mafiosos couldn't? I was like wth? That doesn't make sense to me. I would think the Mafiosos would be "all around stronger" than a regular assassin.  Don't understand why a handgun has more attack than a machine gun or why spies have over 200 hp and mafiosos have like 75. Villagers have more hp than them.  lol  They are more powerful in groups in stealth mode even though the stats don't show it. But still I think they should be able to do everything a normal spy/assassin does and even better. More hp, attack, line of sight, even have more powerful bombs.There is a tech that says they will reduce the gather rates of enemy villagers. If the mafiosos are nearby by any enemy villagers, they will typically harass them and chase them off. So unless I am wrong, that is a useless tech. The other tech that they reduce the attack of nearby enemy units. If it's true. that is great but I can't say I notice it. 

The Omerta card is creative but useless. You can't have merchants hovering around mafiosos during a battle. They all
 get killed and with them the Omerta affect is killed as well. I think they should increase the Mafia hp by atleast 3x , 250-350 seems fair and raise attack of a tommy gun when its unstealthed, definitely more so than a spy with a hand gun and without the use of an omerta/merchant genocide card, seeing all your merchants get killed while trying to boost your mafiosos.

Religion is also suppose to be a strength of Italy. How is it so in WOL?  Because you save 200 gold by already having a pre determined religion? That's not a big advantage plus they are the only Catholic civ that can only construct one church. Yes the church can convert faith to gold, but still only one vs 2 for all others?  How is that an advantage? Also catholic priests from other civs or priests from other religions seem to have just as much power. 

I imagine there are useless to silly cards for different civs but there is a card in the Italian deck that says treasure guardians condemned by priest are turned into merchants? Really?  The Priests can hardly condemn anyways, so its a waste of trying. But if you do condemn a treasure guardian, it turns into a merchant. Wow...  How about improving the condemning ability of Italian Priests so they are clearly stronger than other catholic priests and if you wish to condemn a treasure guardian, be rewarded with something far more valuable than a merchant like a military unit, spy, or even another priest or statue?  Also Inquisitors could be available as soon as your church is built and they can condemn enemy villagers?  That would give them some religious swagger.

There is another card that says Statues which I have grown to like since I learned how to use them will condemn enemy priests. I like the concept but you never see an enemy priest with in walking distance of a statue. AI or humans wont use them that way. So having to use a card to do such an action is a waste of card deck space. I think if an enemy unit or army destroys a statue, they should all get condemned. That might second guess enemies from destroying statues. I never seen a natural disaster on this game with any civ, so having that as a feature for a statue seems useless or they need to create more natural disasters.  I seen another post of somebody trying to create the papal states and Hoops said they were good ideas for the Italians. Those ideas would definitely make them far more interesting.  Without me being a developer, its easier to say ofcourse

And another card, i think it was the Roman Question that said your units will instantly kill an enemy priest. Why waste a card on that, It's not hard at all for a unit to to kill an enemy priest 

Anyways, thanks for reading and if you disagree with any of my opinions, please enlighten me. 
I am too old for games like this but too young to resist playing them
 
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Circle of Ossus
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Re: Italians

Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:18 pm

Stealth wrote: Religion is also suppose to be a strength of Italy. How is it so in WOL?  Because you save 200 gold by already having a pre determined religion? That's not a big advantage plus they are the only Catholic civ that can only construct one church. Yes the church can convert faith to gold, but still only one vs 2 for all others?  How is that an advantage? 
I agree with everything (or nearly everything). I think the reason spies/mafiosi have such low HP is because they would else wreck the Habsburgs. Even if little useful, I also find the free religion and faith trading rather underwhelming. I don't even know if these buttons even work. And if you somehow want to specialize in trading faith away (IDK why you would), you are still stuck with one building. The Italians don't have such limited building slots like other civs have (see the villager), so a church could fit somewhere (probably in the city wagon with the houses). Make it so that no tech can be researched there, it would only function for gathering, this way the basilica will retain its role. However, biggest reason to not look into this problem is that about nobody cares.
<a href="viewtopic.php?f=8&t=768&p=6612#p6612" class="postlink" >Swiss UA Proposal</a>
 
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Stealth
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Re: Italians

Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:37 am

Circle of Ossus wrote:
Stealth wrote: Religion is also suppose to be a strength of Italy. How is it so in WOL?  Because you save 200 gold by already having a pre determined religion? That's not a big advantage plus they are the only Catholic civ that can only construct one church. Yes the church can convert faith to gold, but still only one vs 2 for all others?  How is that an advantage? 
I agree with everything (or nearly everything). I think the reason spies/mafiosi have such low HP is because they would else wreck the Habsburgs. Even if little useful, I also find the free religion and faith trading rather underwhelming. I don't even know if these buttons even work. And if you somehow want to specialize in trading faith away (IDK why you would), you are still stuck with one building. The Italians don't have such limited building slots like other civs have (see the villager), so a church could fit somewhere (probably in the city wagon with the houses). Make it so that no tech can be researched there, it would only function for gathering, this way the basilica will retain its role. However, biggest reason to not look into this problem is that about nobody cares.

Every civ could have an advantage over another one. I personally think the Dutch and Anglos are tougher match ups for the Italians because of the numerous envoys and explorers they each have.

All I am suggesting are

Statues condemn units that destroy them

More hitpoints and tommy gun attack for visible Mafiosos, more hp for Italian Priests and Inquisitors

More condemntion range for Italian Priests and Inquisitors and the ability to condemn villagers. Lets see some religious advantage

Rework the Omerta Card, just make it where it adds hp and attack to Mafiosos, no merchants need to be near them for this to happen.
Having them close by only gets them slaughtered

2nd Basilica so you can gather as much faith as other catholic civs.

The two techs in the Basillica. One of them gives you 5 Ryuters for 1000 food. Less food or more Ryuters and 1000g for 5 upgraded Askari. Less gold or more units

But at the end of the day, you are probably right. Very few people play the Italians so it lacks interest so there probably won't be any changes
 
I am too old for games like this but too young to resist playing them
 
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Circle of Ossus
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Re: Italians

Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:34 pm

Stealth wrote:
Circle of Ossus wrote: But at the end of the day, you are probably right. Very few people play the Italians so it lacks interest so there probably won't be any chaYou 
You misunderstood me. I meant that no one ever is going to make full use of the faith-trading mechanic. I very rarely ever need more than 1 religious building, so I guess it is the same here, no one is going to use 30 vils for converting faith into coin.
<a href="viewtopic.php?f=8&t=768&p=6612#p6612" class="postlink" >Swiss UA Proposal</a>

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